joint manipulation and street

hey chaps and chapet's
joint manipulation and street defence .
whats your opinion .
i know mine :-)
cheers
matt

Coming from a jujutsu based art.......

Joint manipulation works well as long as you can fool your opponent into putting himself into the postitions you need himself.

If you have to try and seize or take a joint..then he's gonna know what you are doing and your gonna fail.

Randori within the dojo is hard when trying this as your opponent is aware of your skills and has roughly the same knowledge as you so it is very hard to get a good waza on him.

As I am getting older I find that I am not able to use stregnth or stamina as much as I used to to wear people down....these days I have to use experience and skill to trick them into the postitions i need :-)

Old age HUH!

merlyn

It comes with practise. Most locks require a great deal of fine motor skills, and when adrenalin is pumping they go out the window. However my juji seems to always make an appearence in comps and just sparing. Its all about relaxing and taking what is given

KK

I have used joint manipulation before in physical confrontations, however they were always preceded with a strike. Personally I would feel very uncomfortable trying to restrain somebody with a joint look unless I was significantly heavier or stronger than them.

tetly

the truth of it is , life is easy in controled situation , get a guy of equal strength and p*ssed and angry and try to restrian the bugger .
they spin and turn a, and stiffen up , whilst spitting and screaming in your face .
at the same time their mates ( or worse their girlfriend) is jumping on your back or better still punching you as hard as they can.
or here's a good one , try restraining someone down a flight of stairs , even wore up a flight of stairs .
i teach grappling based arts and strikeing , also close joint .
at least whilst strikeing i can keep a reasonable distance and keep some sort of order in my enviroment .
but every one to their own , what ever works for the indervidual.
but to be honest , ( as those that know me ) i'm 6'4 and 18 + stone .
i push lots of weights and train hard in all my disaplines ( exept kickboxing)
and if some one said to me restrain or strike , it would be a strike every time .
as luke said , would probably use it after i have dropped a few bombs .
soften the bugger up .

but as a sub section here .

how many times as a student or instructor when showing or doing a technique of some sort have you said the imortal word's? " no! no! no! you attack like this !!!!"
there is no wrong way to do any attach .
i have heard such ludicrus thing as " you dont punch like that" or better still "this is how you would grab" . um!!! reality check , joe public will attack and strike in the most random ways .


cheers
matt

there is many ways that people will strike at you and you cn only defend best ou can. Puttin locks and restraining is also in thetiming and who as a cooler head. I disagree in the size and strength part cos i` only 5`1 ish and i avtaken blokes and women down in my job when ive had to and held thm down sreaming like a pig

QUOTE (jediwarrior @ Nov 24 2007, 12:58 PM)
there is many ays that people will strike at you and you cn only defend best ou can. Puttin locks and restraining is also in thetiming and who as a cooler head. I disagree in the size and strength part cos i` only 5`1 ish and i avtaken blokes and women down in my job when ive had to and held thm down sreaming like a pig

What exactly did you do once you restrained them? What environment did this happen? As I understand it, and I may be wrong but these locks etc are designed to pop out joints and brake bones, the restraint aspect was only originally meant to be used as a safe way to train (tap out).

I can understand the concept of restraints when working in groups, Police, Prison etc but from a self protection view point I think you’re putting yourself in a very compromising situation.

Let’s assume you've somehow restrained the aggressive, drunk/drugged monster that is intent on knocking you into next week. What exactly do you do once you've restrained him, hope he calms down? Hope help arrives (help that is for you, not his 5 mates and drunk girlfriend). Lets be honest your as restrained as he is, cause the moment you let go all hell will break loose.

Why tie yourself up, hit with hate until you knock the bas@$rd out, only when the guy is unconscious on the floor would I feel he's been suitably restrained.

tetley

sooo true tetley

i do try not to be mean ....................... BUT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
what is being said is the stark truth , honest ...............

i will explain the great way i spent sat night .... and put it in a controlled context

saturday night at the lounge in dorchester (a local town to me )
i was happily going about my business ( doorwork) at a fairly ruff nightclub.....
twoz a hard trance night 10pm till 5 am............... wall 2 wall with pill heads ...
got called to the main doors as a problem had ocured , a pleasent young chap had had his fill of pills , so we kindly moved him on ...
he did'nt seem to want to go ( troublesome chappy) the youth of today tut tut
so he stood about telling the lovely club goers that he wanted to stab them .
what ever next ( tut tut)
so i encouraged him to the other side of the street with a subtle neck lock and when we arived at our destination ( the other side of the road ) which took about 25 minutes .
i asked him again pleasently to move on ..... still he was not in the mood to move on.
after he had grabbed at my clothes ect i decided to sedately choke the c*nt out.
as he fell limply to the floor i reflected on my handy work and thought ..... hhhmmmm job well done ... finished up by placeing him in recovery and going back to my work...
then chuff me 5 min later the little monkey was back , but rather cross ( no control these lads) .
so this time i thought hey lets try again ( in my calm controlled manner) , moved him on , back to the other side of the road ....
the little tinker just would'nt have it so i pinched his little throat off till he went blue then one of my collegues was short of temper caught him with a few prize shots .
left the chap to reflect and again went about our work .....
then bugger me sideways 5 min later the cheeky chap was back ...
hhhhmmmmm i thought rashanaly to my self , i must deal with the bliter once and for all .....
so i dragged him down tha ally across the street and gave him a dam good spanking ( all in the most controlled manner of course) ........especially when i converted the nice young feller me lads head whilst standing on his chest .

along with the other 17 confrontations made for a great saturday nights work.....

and of course i was in control at all times , and delt with all situations without even an inrease to my pulse .and with a smile on my face at all times ................

my frustration with martial arts is this .....................................
dont fool yourself , and if ya do one day you will pay the price .
there is NO rational way , or control and if you believe you can the you are nieve and foolish , there is no nice way just survival ............
you can not sanitise violence , and you can not take away the frezied hate and un adultarated fear .

also i do remember the time mr tetley when 5 young rapscallions decided to be so rude , did'nt one of them need his face stapleing back together ohmy.gif biggrin.gif

cheers
matt

Again we're back to the training methods we use to learn in smile.gif

KK

i`m a door man so i try and lock emup soon as i can if i`m getting them to leave a pub/club and if it turns nasty which it has i lock there shoulder taking them to the floor nd if po put a wrist lock forcing there wrist or thumb back wards applyin more pessure till they realise im gona snap the jointor dislocate it but each sinaro is different. I`ve done doors for 3 yrs and im sia baged and the shortsest in sheffield but still able to defend myself when nessasery. People think because of my size `l not do nythin but when there screamin lik pigs an there mats are stood not doin anythin they stop either because of the pain the experencing or that there not goin to win with out going to A and E via poice station

can i have a job in shefield please ..................

i really am doubting my ability ...........

am i doing something wrong ...................

they never seem to go out that easy for me ........................

oh well back to the drawing board ??????????????

ho hum

matt

plenty of jobs here pal fights are a regular thing here with the gypsies and various idiots round the city and surrounding areas

QUOTE (jediwarrior @ Nov 27 2007, 06:45 PM)
i`m a door man so i try and lock emup soon as i can if i`m getting them to leave a pub/club and if it turns nasty which it has i lock there shoulder taking them to the floor nd if po put a wrist lock forcing there wrist or thumb back wards applyin more pessure till they realise im gona snap the jointor dislocate it but each sinaro is different.

I think this shows the difference between door work and self protection, Matt's thread was about joint manipulation in a self protection context, or that’s how I interpreted it.

As I already said, I’ve seen police, doorman etc use restraints when working in teams, and I see that it could be used to maneuver someone from the premises, but and a big but, you have others around you who should be assisting you, the other doorman should be dealing with mates, girlfriends etc who if you were own your own would probably attack you, they should be assisting you in removing the guy. When you’re on your own you don't have these luxuries and I can't see a reason why you'd want to be maneuvering somebody for that distance anyway.

I really can't see the validity of restraining somebody in a self protection situation unless they hardly pose a threat and you’re being really good natured.

Perhaps somebody could suggest a self protection scenario where you’re on your own and where they would restrain rather than strike.

tetley

exactly tetley.

and i tell you one thing , there aint no way in a fight anyone will get a lock on me , a guarantee it ( and if they do they had better be plepaired to break it).and thats not a "big i am thing" my mentality is you better be prepared to go to extremes , as i am.
and it frustrates me that people just wont open their eyes.
and i love the way people will clinically refer to violence , it's scary !
dont you read the f*cking newspapers ,.
we aint playing it on the f*cking xbox

never mind "NEXT"

matt

QUOTE
there aint no way in a fight anyone will get a lock on me , a guarantee it ( and if they do they had better be plepaired to break it).


This is exactlythe point. A friend was commenting on a restraining hold the other day. 'Wriggle out of it' he was saying.

I explained that the purpose of the gyaku waza was not to hold and restrain..rather to break and destroy.

I always recall something I heard many years ago....

There are three ways off stopping an opponent.

1 - Break his concentration - If he;s not thinking about hitting you, then he's not hitting you.

2 - attack the central nervous system - If you damage the nerves in his arm, he can;t make a fist, he can;t hit.

3 - destroy the structural integrity of his body - break his wrist/arm, he can;t make a fist, he can't hit you.

Not one mention of 'pinning' him down and holding him.
Again it comes back to what we ranted about. The difference between a Martial Sport and a Martial Art and the mindsets that acompany them.

If you want to be a warrior...then be a warrior, but be prepared for the repurcusion of your actions. angry.gif

merlyn

some good points there merlyn. I hever heard them before

here here merlyn
spot on , i agree 10 fold .

i am of the mentality that i will never give in , if ya punch me an think you'll get away with it you have a nother thing coming , i am not the perfect artist ( but who is )
but i do have heart , the only way i will be stopped is to be totaly incopacitated .
i will keep coming till the bitter end .
a lock will do knowt .
this is the mindset of a true artist

merlyn you are my kinda guy .
i am doing a series next year for mai on top talent , you interested mate.

cheers
matt

I've used 'em but you have to give the person a good clip first and if you've done that why bother?
The term you want is compliance - you have to make the person compliant to your wishes and my little mantra is - Pain stops the brain.
Hit them somewhere soggy, then go for control,I've found if you keep banging their head on a solid object - door jamb, table etc. they styay very compliant.
The classic was a few (lot) of years ago, one of my unarmed combat (as it was then) instructors was out in a pub and it all kicked off.
Mick grabbed the table and tried to flip it over - it was screwed to the floor and so was poor Mick. He got out banged this bloke and went for a wrist lock (one where you turn the little finger side up), got the lock on, the bloke was wriggling and swearing so Mick smashed down on the guys elbow and broke it, he could feel the bones grinding together and this bloke ignored the pain and bit poor Mick on the forehead!
So even my little mantra doesn't work all the time.

in our drug and alcohol fueled streets not much works to be honest , if you beat the buggers your gonna do a stretch ,
it's a loose loose situation , where only the lucky come out on top.
i have always thought of it like this .
martial arts just gives me a more luck than the average bear lol

cheer
matt

As an ex doorman and one of the "Boys in Blue " ( I get called a lot worse) , I find " shock and lock " the best way to control knucle scrappers who won't do as requested . Also being 6ft and 19 1/2 stones in my socks, body mass goes a long way in controlling people.
As we are the most watched nation on earth , our actions must be justified and not look over the top

I like to strike, but if a lock or hold came along I'd take, but wouldn't go looking for it, well maybe a choke...! but for self protection, when you get a lock it should be for a break.

Has anyone seen a group of police officers trying to hold a drunk down or move them to a van? "No sense, No pain" what a laugh, I aways think, is this lock going to stop me taking, most of the time it's no. If you manage to get a good lock on, given enough time they'll get out of it.