A Massive Debate

Reasonable force
being what a jury of your peers would agree is the action of a
reasonable person to take in self defence, defence of your property or
another person or in performing an arrest.

This would
specifically exclude continuing violence against someone who has
stopped fighting back or is incapable of fighting back.

So, is
that reasonable, or should you be allowed to go a little bit further in
revenge? If so, how far. If you get punched on a night out, should you
be able to hospitalise your aggressor (by continuing violence once
you've knocked them to the floor), should you be able to kick them to
death? Or should you stop once the immediate threat is removed?


Jediwarrior

damn fine question chap.
i can come from both sides , i work as a doorman ,and enjoy a good knoght out too.
as
a doorman it's all about rules and reg's , and ya job is to make sure
everyone has a good night in safety , minimal force and alot of talking
down.

as a guy on a night out , hit first , hit hard and don't re'lent.

but
there are some benifits to both , yes there is satisfaction in
punishment , but humiliation can be an outstanding punishment, there
aint knowt like grabbing a joint and twisting till they scream like a
girl infront of their mates , and begg you to let them appologise.
am i sounding a bit twisted here lol.

back
to the point tho , the law is soooooooo vague , and this is the age of
big brother (cctv everywhere) , if ya do it be smart .
also what is
reasonable force , my opinion is , i did'nt ask them to start on me ,
so if they do i'll do what i want , i think the word is kama lol

cheers
matt.k.f.s

a
friend told me he knows a judge and he said that as a martial artist u
are liable to a higher prossicution if u srtike someone because u know
how to strike or disable an opponent, ie u have the upper hand in an
altercation because u have a better knowledge of how to hit them.
Example a few years ago an ex world champion kickboxer did a few years
behind bars for hittin his attacker and killin him. Dont know ins and
outs but i heard he only hit him once and he fell hit his head and died

jediwarrior

The Law always was and always will be an ass.

You
won't get prosecuted to any greater degree if you study a Martial Art,
but theamount of reasonable force expected of you would be less.

I
often teach 'self defence' seminars. I try to emphisis the importance
of not being in the situation in the first place, but all people want
to 'rush' to is the hands on bit of the course (which is minimal much
to their disappinment LOL)

I often use this sceario........

Two different women are attacked on two different occasions ( with me so far LOL).
Both
manage to throw their attacker to the ground. Both kick the attacker in
teh head causing severe damage. One would most likely not be
prosectuted....the other would most likely be prosecuted. WHY ?

You
don;t have all the infomation to make a judgement really, but one woman
is a 60 year old dinner lady, the other a 28 year old gym instructor.
The law would expect the gym instructor who is physically fit) to run
away and get help. The elderly lady would be able to use more force to
protect herself as her options are limited.

We tend to suffer
the long arm of the law more...because we are supposed to be 'trained'.
What is truely shocking is that if 3 of them come onto you and you blat
one....your looking at a charge of assualt until you can prove you were
defending yourself...what happened to the 'innocent till proven guilty'
bit that the criminals tend to rely on.

I have worked in teh
security industry in roles varying from retail guard to CP work and see
a lot of idiots on both sides of the law.

This is a good time to
show you one of my favorite quotes. It is from a 16th Century
Philosopher called Baltisar Gracian. I recomend poeple read him, it has
opened my eyes to a number of things.

QUOTE

Never compete with someone who has nothing to lose. The struggle will be unequal. One of the contestants enters the fray unencumbered, for he has already lost everything, even his shame.. He has cast off everything, has nothing further to lose, and throws himself headlong into all sorts of insolence. Never risk your precious reputation on such a person. It took many years to win it, and it can be lost in a moment, on something far from momentous. One breath of scandal freezes much honorable sweat.. The righteous person knows how much is at stake. He knows what can damage his reputation, and, because he commits himself prudently, he proceeds slowly, so that prudence has ample time to retreat. Not even if he triumphs will he win back what he lost by exposing himself to the risk of losing.

Merlyn

I think the thing to remember here is 'reasonable force'.

Your
knowledge will only come into question if it is felt that you have
exeeded it. You are not going to suffer because you have experience or
training in Martial Arts when it comes to defending yourself.

Where a lot of people will fall down is in teh difference between defending themselves and retaliating.

To
escape from a confrontation by striking or restraining is reasonable.
If you felt your life in danger, responding with leathal force is
accpetable (proving it is the hard bit )

A
skilled martial artist 5 foot 2 tall weighing 9 stones is going to have
to use a lot more force and skill than an unskilled man 6 foot 4 weight
20 stones.

The question is 'How far does he go?'

QUOTE

If so, how far. If you get punched on a night out, should you be able to hospitalise your aggressor (by continuing violence once you've knocked them to the floor), should you be able to kick them to death? Or should you stop once the immediate threat is removed?

if
you've knocked him to the floor then the law says you have defended
yourself. Kick them to death and you have retaliated to the offence and
are open to prosectuction yourself.

Don;t forget the definition of assualt as in the PACE act of 1984

QUOTE

An assault is committed when a person intentionally or recklessly causes another to apprehend the immediate infliction of unlawful force.

This says that you need only perceive a threat and an assualt has been commited.

As Matt said:

QUOTE

as a guy on a night out , hit first , hit hard and don't re'lent.

If
you perceive a threat you are within your right to defend yourself,
although this may not mean you have the right to stirke out first.

There
was a case in Swansea a few years back where several doormen escourted
a man outside a premisis. A fight brokoe out in teh street and the man
was struck, falling, stirking his head in teh pavement and he died.

The
doormen were put on trial for manslaughter, not becuase they hit him,
but because they had the numbers and trainig there , that they didn;t
have to hit him.

As long as you act in your own defence and do enough to protect yourself, you shouldn;t fall fowl of the law.

To be honest, most of us know when we has overstepped the mark, so should we be suprised when we are charged?

Merlyn

OK......so you were assualted and defended yourself by striking the guy.....

Did you carry on 'defending' when he was on teh ground or did you stop after you defended yourself?

As a practioner of Martial Arts did they say you shouldn;t have hit him so hard?

Seems to me what you say is an act of self defence and falls within the remit of the law.

If you knocked him down and followed it up with a kick to the body, you would have been liable to be charged yourself.

Merlyn

no once he was
down i pick him up used some well chosen words and threw him down road.
But week after i called in to place i was head doorman to check on
things and he was in so told the door staff to remove him and i rang
police. When police arrived i explained what was wot and he was
arrested and charged.


jediwarrior

her is one main thing being missed here .
we sadly suffer from the " human condition"
we have emotions , feelings , agression , fear ,anger,envy. ect
we arn't robots.
and just because we learn some dances and hit some pad's does'nt make us buda.


i have one basic rule , don't bring it to me and i wont deal with it lol
i dont take " a higher road"
i am human , someone starts on me i will finish it with the same intent he started with.
if he has pure agression i will meet it with pure agression .
drunk or not i refuse to be a victim of any kind.

i can best explain this way
i took a seminar and we did a question aswer thing ,
i was asked "what does martial arts mean to me"

so i said "FREEDOM"

it means i can go where i want without fear , and do what i want without fear .
i have never started a fight (verbal or physical) but i have finished many.
the
extreme physical and mental training i have gained , strenghth , power,
speed , focus , conditioning but most of all a blief in myself./
you must remember the first rules of the arts .
my instructor told me when i was aged 8 yrs at my first grading .
principles and honour are paramount , you must do what is right,and respect is given and recieved in equal mesures.

so thats my strange veiw on the subject.

cheers
matt.k.f.s

QUOTE

i am human , someone starts on me i will finish it with the same intent he started with.

I always remember a quote.....

QUOTE

Never start a fight, always finish it

LOL....

The human equation is a very good point. Unfortuantely that caomes back to the retailiation point.

We often retailiate rather then defend.

About
2 years ago several youths threw something at my wife ina local shop.
Cutting a long story short, I went out and 'had a few words with them'
:-)

One ended up hanging by his neck with my hands on his throat. Iwas so angry I said words I have never even heard before LOL
When I let him go I grabbed his mates that were with him. I was
FURIOUS. They all had the good news. Later a friend who was sitting in
a parked car phoned. He said he was afraid to get out in case I went
for him as well LOL.

When I calmed down, I went home and waited
for the police to come. I knew I was in the wrong, but at the time I
wasn;t bothered with the consequences of my actions.

This is the human element that we need to try and overcome in the eyes of the law.

There
is a simualar debate on teh forum at my own site. Despite what I have
already posted I am more an old testemnet kinda guy....

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

If someone wants to start a fight...I'll damn well finsih it :-)

merlyn

now thats what i like to hear lol
nice one

cheers
matt.k.f.s

QUOTE
If you get punched on a night out, should you be able to hospitalise your aggressor (by continuing violence once you've knocked them to the floor), should you be able to kick them to death? Or should you stop once the immediate threat is removed?


I suppose it's hard to know until you are actually put in the situation. I've only really had to deal with that kind of thing a few times and both times I went too far, then regreted it afterwards.

Malcy-Malc

but u know that and next time if there ever is one u know how far to go. But the question WILL always be whats to far ?

I've been told, that when questioned by police. It's not what you do, it's what you tell them you did, that get's you in to problems. So always be aware what you say, and if arrested, remember you will be under stress; wait till you have legal rep. This gives you a cooling off period, and they won't hang you with your own words!!

a friend told me not to say you do martial arts as it will land you in bigger probs and even may charge you with a bigger offence